Nargott2dredknight
2% навык: до 21 уровня общий шанс поймать навык около 45% (0.65/0.67 ^ 20 = 0.55; 0.67 значит, что у нас в среднем забито несколько навыков с суммарным весом 33%, т.е. 2% выбирается из оставшихся 67%)
3% навык: около 60%
4% навык: около 71%
5% навык: около 79%
6% навык: около 85%
8% навык: около 92%
10% навык: около 96%
11% навык: около 97%
12% навык: около 98%
16% навык: около 100%
18% навык: около 100%
Т.е. начиная с 5% шанс поймать нужный навык в принципе достаточно высок (более 80%), но все же при значительной разнице в шансах будет ощущаться отличие в том, как поймать навык быстро (на ранних уровнях).
In theory all the math is correct but in practice things are a little different.
Lets say you play a game and get up to level 2 where you get "War Machines".
The skill by itself is completely rubbish you need to level it up and get some of the perks to start doing something.
It is better to level up "War machines" up to the desired point on the next few levels then to pick 3 new skills.
Why is it better?
Heroes V level up secondary skills mechanics works the following way. When a hero levels up he gets 4 choices to pick from.
- 2 of them are perks
- 2 of them are skills where one is upgrade of an known secondary skill and the other is a secondary skill the hero does not yet know.
So on level up you get proposed precisely one new secondary skill. The math on the example above works for the new skills exactly as you say.
But what is bothersome is how the second upgrade skill offering works. The one for the already picked skills.
The proposal you get for upgrade of the already existing skills does not care about the % distribution. The game always offers to upgrade one of the 2 latest picked new skills.
So lets assume you play "Engineer" class fortress and want to max out his starting skill "War Machines" early so the hero can defeat creatures on the map more efficiently.
Hero levels up to level 2 and gets proposed "Offense" as a new skill. Thats a good skill lets pick it.
Hero levels up to level 3 and gets proposed "Defense" as a new skill.Thats a good skill lets pick it.
The problem you have now is that on the 4th level up you will almost never get "war machines" to upgrade.
The same is valid for "Perks". Heroes get proposed perks from the latest learnt or upgraded secondary skill (if available).
So math does not work in the long run. Same rules go for skills like "Summoning" and "Destruction" in the mage department. They have to be maxed out fast for maximum mana/damage efficiency.
The reason why the % are so near is that even if you play the same hero class each game it is very likely the hero will get more than 1 or 2 choices for new skills on level 2. This is good because not all heroes in a class are fit to one "best" strategy for the class.
Nargott1) Все указанные классы имеют около 45% колдовства и около 30% знания, можно было бы на уровне параметров где-то дать меньше колдовства (30%), но больше знания (45%)
2) Если чародейство обязательно для всех магических классов, то образование - нет (где-то можно его убрать в редкие навыки); также связку призыв+хаос можно разбить другими школами магии, чтобы меньше повторяться
1) True. The easiest way to explain this is with the 3 classes - Might are the weakest in magic, Balanced is better in magic, Magic utilize the strongest magic.
Magic strength depends on Spellpower so the more Mage is the class the more spellpower.
But lets elaborate a bit more.
Might class has 2 main skills Attack and Defense and they are almost equally balanced at some point in the future when the big stacks come becouse damage caused and survivability gained is proportional.
You can have hero with 40 Attack and 0 Defense or the other way around and he will still do good enough.
Magic heroes does not care about the army though. Unlike army damage and army endurance they have Magic damage and Magic endurance.
Magic damage is the average damage/effect strength per cast they do.
Magic endurance is the average time they can cast magic through the battle.
Throughout the game if Magic heroes and Might heroes carry their whole army in PvE battles Magic heroes suffer more casualties because due to low protective skills their army take hard hits if they miscalculate.
This is why as a Magic play you carry only what army you need for the battle and rely on your spells to get the opponent.
Whenever you go out of mana your are done. You may still win but casualty number will be great.
Some builds and some battles (vs creatures) are a bit of gamble for the Magic heroes.
Getting back on the skills now. Knowledge and spellpower are not equally distributable as Attack and Defense. There are a few rules that are required to be kept in order Magic to be good enough.
Magic heroes of a certain level have to make more damage/impact per cast then their Might alternatives of the same level hitting with a sword.
This is important because Might heroes damage comes for free over time with the level. If the "hero melee" hit makes more damage than a spell the Mage will be forced to hit instead of cast which is not good however you look at it.
This is why we are forced to keep spellpower % gain high.
Let me explain this another way.
1 attack/defense stat gives 3.33% bonus for the whole game. But even if that stat does not increase for months it still gets better over time because the hero army stack increase with time.
On the other hand spellpower efficiency drops every week because all stacks globally become stronger (Players and map creatures).
So comparing plain numbers and % stats in here is very subjective because there are so many in game factors.
As a matter of fact I can say that heroes franchise may never be balanced, ever. Because the core hero and classes balancing anywhere (might and magic 3,4,5,6,7 etc) is very dependable on the map you play.
For example if you make a 2 player map where opponent castles are a week distance from each other without border guards Magic heroes would own 100% of the time.
Early on Might stats does not count for nothing because there is no army. Also hero melee hits kill like 2-3 tier 1 units which is nothing.
On the other hand Magic heroes will blast all their mana and after that their strength will be as competitive as that of the might hero because they will do the same damage per melee hit and primary stat difference will be negligible for the week 2-3 army size.
How hero development interacts with the maps and the zones inside is something very seriously taken in MMH55. Credit goes to Magnomagus.
I believe the ARMG is about 30 000 lines of code.
P.S. I want to add here that there is one Magic hero class with more knowledge than spellpower gain. This is the "Artificier" class.
Academy hero classes go as this "Balanced" "Magic", "Magic". This is how their primary skill distribution go as well - 50/50,25/75,20/80
They compensate for the Might skill loss by transforming the knowledge in Attack and Defense stats through the creature artifacts.
Nargott(About Might heroes with Shatters)Не столько богохульство, сколько тот факт, что эти навыки очень специфичны/ситуативны, их сложно сделать достаточно привлекательными на уровне обычных навыков.
That was we thought as well. Shatters were actually picked around the mid game when you start preparing for the PvP attack. It was really unpleasant that those skills offer no bonuses before the PvP.
Another think we thought about is that if you go shatters and do not pick magic schools the Magic Guild building becomes unusable.
This is how the idea about summoning prime elements was born. If a hero has an advanced (or higher) shatter he gets free elementals in all his castles at the begining of every week.
The number of the elementals is multiplied by the level of the mage guild. Also multiple shatters can be combined for a greater effect.
Some people were a bit sceptical about the usefulness of the new ability in PvP games but after trying it out it was actually overpowered!
We head Stronghold heroes with 4 shatters getting elementals and selling them on the marketplace for huge amounts of gold (I think one elemental costs around 800?) and their economy exploded.
Even if they don't sell the elementals they just stomped you over with them.
Now the current setting is still ok for PvP but not that empowering. There are also some common artifacts that further enforce the strength of that summoning so it is a viable strategy to use an elemental instead one of the six faction creatures.
Here is a good reply from Magnomagus as well.
magnomagusShatters are added to all factions to replace skills that were in TOE completely useless and didn't fit the class from a lore perspective. For example a knight cannot use summoning and destructive properly because it doesn't develop the required spellpower. It also just looks weird. H4 and H3 had generic spellschool defenses as spells, so it is just a minor step to make it skills, nothing new or blasphemy. A knight with destructive magic is blasphemy. A paladin with both light and shatter dark is perfect harmony.
NargottЭто не так:
- есть сопротивление магии (15% шанс отразить негативное заклинание);
- есть отражение (15% снижение магического урона);
- есть бонусы к здоровью (+X% к здоровью)
- есть специализированные вещи типа: печать света, печать тьмы, слабость тьмы, стихийное равновесие, изгнание
Если есть проблема с ранними адептами школ Destructive и Summoning, то ее можно попробовать решить иначе: значительно поднять цены на топовые заклинания 3-5 уровня, так чтобы они ориентировались на позднюю игру (и требовали много знания). Низкоуровневые заклинания наносят меньший урон.
Lets say we exclude shatters and take the proposals above one by one.
- Magic resistance % and Magic proof - I am not going to discuss how they work but they are not enough. Occultism penetrates both plus they do not cover most of the Summoning or Light spells.
Also lets imagine they were good enough. It is not fair against the Magic heroes as the Might will spend 2-3 secondary skill points to protect against all magic.
Shatters make you invest in something. Also default shatter perks are not that useless anymore. The new battle scheme allows the battle to last longer thus Mage heroes cast spells (which are now more expensive too) more times during the battle.
Shatter perks make them either burn more mana, cut spellpower efficiency or make them cast less often. If you get one of those things correct in PvP you already make the opponent mage suffer.
High level spell costs are significantly increased. Also some high level spell efficiencies were modified appropriately.
NargottНе хорошо здесь то, что это умение фактически требует прокачивать боевые машины, иначе отыгрывает в разы слабее. И с другой стороны, при прокачке баллисты, очень важно качать атаку со стрельбой/огненными стрелами, т.к. урон разгоняется в разы. Т.е. получается слишком жесткая связка между атакой и боевыми машинами (баллистой). Впрочем, так было и в оригинале, поэтому это просто личное мнение.
It will simply be too powerful if they were in the same branch. Tent and Catapult will never be picked. Basically here I can answer the same way I did for "Retribution" the synergy is too good.
Nargott+6 это теоретический максимум (раньше максимум был выше +10). Реальные бонусы будут порядка +1-2 в среднем. Это малопривлекательное умение, информация проверена и доказана на практике (есть специальный формат Random Tactical Arena, где игроки соревнуются в прокачке, никто не хотел качать такое умение, т.к. оно слабо отыгрывало).
the aim is to benefit the hero with around +2. This is how much all perks should give on an average.
NargottВы тестировали это умение? В оригинальной игре оно работало только для орков, никаких других существ от магии не защищало.
This was reported a long time ago. May be it is fixed in 3.1 I don't know. But I have tested it before and it works.
I will do another test when I have time the next few days and will get back to you.
Magnomagus for sure have tested it. He double, triple checks everything before it is included inside.
NargottУдача сильнее, т.к. искусная Offence+Archery дает 20% damage (4 умения), а искусная Luck дает те же 20% уже за 3 умения.
True but luck is a chaotic skill. You can get luck for a hit with your weakest unit or a hit with your strongest damage dealer, you never know.
NargottПри +3 удачи - 20% до 30% (не 35%). При +2 удачи (развитая) - 13% до 20%. Проходной - ситуативная солдатская удача, которая не всем нужна.
Those are different things, 10% luck strike damage modifier is not 10% average damage increase.
Luck strike damage modifier is x1.66 . Now multiply it by 1.1 and you get ~1.83.
Now if a monster hits 10 times with 3 luck and he gets 3 lucky hits the damage formula with critical strike is 7*X + 3*1.83*X = 12.49X compared to no critical strike 7*X + 3*1.66*X = 11.98
So the hero gets roughly ~5% damage for that perk.
NargottВы же ослабили воздаяние с 5% до 2,5%, можно ослабить еще более - до 2%, тогда бонус будет между 4 и 10% (от +2 до +5 боевого духа).
True. A lot of the changes Magnomagus has taken from the ToE Tournament edition version. This one is from there too.
From what he said a lot of the changes in the Tournament edition were made after a lot of testing so he really keeps most of them.
Anyway I will bring the topic up to see if he has something to say.
NargottЕсли оставлять ее в лидерстве, то есть интересная идея давать +1 к инициативе, а не скорости. При любом раскладе это "финальный" перк, т.е. ультимативно сильный (как при +1 к скорости, так и при +1 к инициативе). Хотя вы хотели избежать "финальных" перков.
Чем плохо давать +1 к скорости - это очень сильно усиливает рашевые тактики. Добежать и убить за первый ход. +1 к инициативе хорошо усиливает армию в целом, но не так полезно для раша, как +1 к скорости. Наконец, инициатива - это то, с чем работает навык Лидерство (сработавший боевой дух увеличивает частоту хода, как и инициатива).
True but just because Leadership synergies with initiative we do not want to give extra +1. More initiative means Leadership will work even better. And if you get this perk this means you have +5 Leadership so that 1 initiative is even stronger that it is.
Speed is OK as there are very few in-game speeds boosts overall (boots of speed for +1 is the other boost I think). Also the aura of speed require 2 not so great perks before that so its strength is compensated but the weakness of the required perks.
Also the all in strategy is not justified because damage boosters are nerfed throughout the game and this strategy just does not work anymore like it did in ToTe.
When I tested the game we did a lot iterations of every PvP battle where different strategies were tested just to be sure if they work and how good they work.
Probably the only faction that may actually do it is the Stronghold because blood rage protects them to some extend. But that is what they are made for.
NargottЯ знаю, что игроки в Random Tactical Arena в 100% случаев в магических прокачках берут чародейство при 10/20/30%. Т.е. это обязательный навык, который в усилении не нуждается. При том, что маны может не хватать (100-200), но навык все равно отыгрывает великолепно.
There is sorcery + occultism + a magic school. This is already 18 levels of skill points. Besides those Enlightenment is very good skill of magic heroes. Those are 24 level points. Yes the combination is strong but the opponent Might hero will be strong enough to go through your army like butter.
Plus what if he has the shatter for that magic school? You got to pick second there is no escape.
NargottДобавлено через 50 минут
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(regarding Combat - retaliation bonus)Этот навык очень, очень слабый. Его бонусы фактически такие же, как и у Offence, но он работает в 4 раза реже (поскольку только 25% рукопашного урона приходится на ответные удары).
Можно давать дополнительно +1/2/3 к защите, тогда будет норм.
Либо есть альтернативный вариант, перед каждым боем дополнительно давать +3/6/9 к уровню героя (цифры для примера) на время боя (скрипт WarpHeroExp). Это повлияет на: урон от геройской атаки; специализации; силу некоторых заклинаний, зависящих от уровня, в том числе кличей. И не повлияет на параметры героя (даже под образованием) или его умения.
What you say only refers to half of the skill. Combat main purpose is to make the hero hit.
In MMH55 hero damage is increased significantly(I don't remember how much check the default stats). The purpose of the skill is the hero to hit. Creature reatliation is just bonus. It is like the hero is on the battlefield and leads the formation.
all hero classes that start with combat always have the middle perk "Martial arts" which makes half hero attacks do double damage.
I have seen heroes kill 100+ Dwarves with a single strike or 10 Archdevils.
The other perks in this skill tree provide great battle tactics variation.
Chain shot can be combined with some of your high init creatures that will make the hero punish the enemy harder while "Avenging strike" will prevent the opponent use one of his 7 units or suffer penalty damage.
For example it is quite often that "Avenging strike" is cast on the most important enemy stack or the archer stack. I have played against players who do not attack with those units to prevent damage.
The retaliation bonus and "preparation perk" are meant to give the skill alternative usage with combination of Defense. Where the hero and his army become a moving stronghold where the hero prefers to be more defensive and cast spells instead of doing a melee hit.
Nargott+1/+1 к атаке и защите это ощутимо слабее, чем +2 к атаке или +2 к защите.
Бонус, распределенный между несколькими параметрами, слабее, чем бонус, акцентированный на одном параметре, даже если это параметры одной группы (как нападение и защита, колдовство и знание).
Например, если у нас воин против мага, то бонус к защите не особо нужен. А если маг против воина, то не особо нужен бонус к атаке.
Correct, this is why the perk is in the end of the branch. Take it if need it. Also the perk give +4 primary stats which is double compared to the average perk bonus.
NargottВы достаточно часто использовали готовность? Довольны ли тем, как она работает на практике? В оригинальной игре ее брали очень редко и без штрафов (хотя, там было неудобное требование тактики).
Before it was nerfed there was a Haven, Paladin build as follows - Expert defense + "Stand your Ground", Combat + "Preparation", Expert Light + all mass perks or the "Guardian Angel" tree.
Haven units in combination with so much defense were nearly unbeatable. Hero cast blessing and has available 2 resurrects - his own and the Angel one. Even "Puppet Master" was not doing good job because the Paladin units had high defense but low damage so hitting each other did not helped a lot.
Same strategy is valid for Fortress Might which also combine this with Runes and high magic resistance.
That was a lot of versions ago though and a lot of things change since then. Preparation is good as it is now.
NargottФактически, отвлечение эффективно работает только против вражеского героя, но не особо работает против нейтралов. При этом если там нет чародейства или массовых заклинаний (0.1), то оно не работает никак. Если есть массовые заклинания (0.1), то оно работает как 10%. Если есть чародейство, то 12-15%. Кстати, чем мотивирован отброс после массовых заклинаний в 0.1, а не 0?
Update: Вспомнил, что отвлечение кидает героя ниже 0, но только до наступления следующего хода юнита (в этот момент отрицательное положение на шкале обнуляется). Так что 5-10% отброс выходит в любом случае, даже без чародейства / массовых заклинаний.
"Distract" alternatives are "Dark Ritual" and "Consume Corpse" they are nearly on the same level of usefulness.
0.1 ATB for the mass spells is because of the hardcodded issue. There is no way you can put 0 value. It crashes the game and 0.1 is the lowest possible.
Nargott1.25 - при прокачанном базовом навыке, без перков? Ок, я не так прочитал цифры (думал про 1.75).
Хорошо, что тогда насчет максимального процента, почему не сделать сразу 25% на всех уровнях навыка, а не 15/20/25%? Ведь расширение гейтинга с 1-2 до 1-4 и 1-6 тиров уже достаточное усиление навыка, 5% бонусы выглядят тут неуместными. Тем более, что 5% бонус дает мастер врат, который в текущей реализации выглядит гораздо слабее, чем просто прокачка базового навыка.
I agree with you about the 15/20/25% bonus. I will pass that to Magnomagus. I believe the reason behind this is because it was like this in ToE so it was just suited for the mod the same way.
NargottЭто ошибка дизайна. Если вы выводите игру в затяжные сроки (3 месяца и более), то надо позаботиться о том, чтобы знание было столь же полноценным параметром, как и при обычных сроках (1-2 месяца). Это делается путем увеличения цен на топовые заклинания, и/или увеличением скорости регенерации маны (которая зависит от знания).
The problem with knowledge is considered a little less stronger than the other skills is that its beneficial effects cannot transform in direct gain. Especially in the early game high knowledge does nothing.
So heroes with Knowledge has slower development path.
Knowledge effects are accumulated over time through artifacts or the ability of excessive spell casting. Unlike other skills mana does not helps that much 100 and 500 mana does not make difference. What it matters is do you have enough or not?
Besides the +2 knowledge bonus for a perk there are some small gains so the hero can catch up with the rest.
Also the level up bonus is not a big deal later on because unlike ToE the level gain curve is modified to be more smoother.
Now it is possible to get up to level 40 on one big map.
NargottНет, я не особо разбираюсь в графике - поэтому если некоторые портреты отпугивают даже меня, то они могут оттолкнуть и многих других игроков.
Все, что я хотел сказать - добавлять только тех героев, портреты которых однозначно вызывают народное одобрение у 90% людей.
В Героях 4 или 6 имеется другой визуальный стиль, поэтому просто так брать оттуда графику и считать все ок, это не лучшая идея.
I don't want to sound rude but this is the first complaint regarding graphics (that I know). I may be wrong however. I am not a graphical guy too
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Regarding spellbook this is a bug in Quantomas Exe file. I will explain it below where you ask about versions.
NargottТ.е. модификация базируется на 3.0? А по какой причине? Есть же проблемные вещи, например, в 3.0 "огненные стрелы" игнорируют 100% защиты цели (имбаланс), да и некоторые настройки для 3.0 отсутствуют, по сравнению с 3.1.
Modification is installed the following way. Install heroes V, patch it to 3.1 and put Quantomas Exe on top.
Quantomas exe is based on a personal source code with personal bug fixes with huge amount of improvement. You can consider it as 3.06 version. it has some bugs from 3.0, but also some bugs fixed from 3.1.
It doesn't recognize most of the script commands from 3.1, It has 95% widescreen implementation (only the spellbook doesn't work).
As you can see "Flaming Arrows" description says it ignores defense so it is ok. It is not that strong because in PvP if they see you with a kick ass pumped balista it will die after the first or second round.
Balista is good for an early game rush on a smaller maps but it can still be countered. After a few games you get to know what each class is capable of so you get prepared for some of the strategy approach.
P.S.
Response to the second @Nargott post about BalistaBalista is indeed very strong but it dies in 1-2 hits in PvP. It is very vulerable against Destruction, Dark + puppet can be used to kill it too.
War machines "Balista" perk is T1 for a reason. This way the hero can pick "fist aid tent" + "Balista" + "Engineering" or all three "War Machines" perks - "tent" , "Balista", "catapult".
You are correct that balista is the best with fire arrows but sometimes you don't want to invest so much points in balista. Also it is very important to know that unlike other war machines Balista damage depends on hero attack and defense skills.
So yes triple balista is strong but not with 5-10 damage. Especially in late game I have sacrificed Defense and spellpower just to have a kick ass balista for PvE and PvP.
Probably one of the best alternatives to balista is the Fist aide tent because along the way it makes your army snowball in size due to reduced losses. It is especially important early on when some might heroes have issues with gaining a momentum.
"Brimstone rain" is a stub yes. We really wanted to include it so by making it gives +4 bonus level to hero in the battle is good as it make the Might hero more offensive in sieges.
I admit I have never used it so far but I have two builds I want to try with it and seem pretty valid.
I get what you mean about the middle perk (battle frenzy). Actually middle perks has a little higher chance to appear than the outer one (Magnomagus did it. I dont know how).
there are a lot of stubs one can take to fill in spots. Lorewise it feels ok it give and it gives some bonus so why break it if we don't have anything better?
I forgot to mention that archer tower damage will be changed (if not already but I cant find it in any of the release posts so it is yet to be) following this formula
Main Tower Dmg = 40 + (TL^2)/8
Side Tower Dmg = 20 + (TL^2)/10
TL - Town level
So at level 31 the side towers will do - 116, the main tower will do - 160. This is 400 pure damage every 10 initiative time. This is more than twice increase in damage and due to the battles being longer than before will accumulate over time.
NargottNargott, от знания сейчас зависит навыки в рунах, лидерстве и артификаты
Видимо, этого не достаточно - раз человек пишет о том, что знание настолько слабо, что ему все еще требуются дополнительные бонусы типа levelup. Хотя levelup сам по себе уже самодостаточен как умение, без бонусов, если берется поздно.
Level up is not that of a big deal anymore. Please take a look at this page for more information.
NargottСпасибо за ответы! Успехов в дальнейшем развитии модификации!
Thank you
. There were a few nice points I have already forwarded to Magnomagus and it will be considered for the next release.